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What a great open-forum discussion.
First of all, Alec, you've created a wonderful platform with DesignCrowd and I always love how you constantly request feedback and discussion from users. I really feel like you've created a superb design community where we can openly compete and challenge eachother but ultimately have to answer to a client, and not get caught up in the nuances of personal debate.
Many of the points I would make have been covered already:
1) Participation Payments really don't entice as much as they take away from the bigger slice.
2) On paper, dollar amounts should set the tone for how much time you spend on a particular project for DesignCrowd, but as Julian perfectly stated, I "spend too much time entering contests when I should be doing my paying work as the contest bug can be quite addictive.."
There really is something to that. Depending on the client or project, sometimes the creative exploration spent on a project outweighs how you feel about the return award. If I read a brief and it sounds fun, I sometimes will dismiss the amount and take a shot.
3) Return Work. Most projects I've been awarded on DesignCrowd have offered return business from clients. This return business has amounted to ten-fold of the award received from DesignCrowd.
And here's Brass Tax: Minimum Payment should be $150.
While many have said $200, and I would agree thats a feasible amount, I think $150 covers the designers time respectively and still retains a value milestone for people seeking business through a design contest. It goes back to the '99 cents looks way better than 1 dollar' to your average consumer theory.
Stepping into a potential DesignCrowd customer's shoes for a moment, I can see how someone would view 200 dollars as a huge leap of faith, vs making a car or insurance payment. Bring that investment down to 150 and it seems more like what you'd pay for a weekend trip or a pair of jeans.
Often times I've found that clients from DesignCrowd really don't know the pains of creating a logo. They think you just whip it up in a few seconds. All of you designers reading this can understand this headache. But in my opinion, DesignCrowd is all about these kinds of clients looking for a logo yet knowing very little about the process. A project value with a "$150-ish" committment entices them to make that commitment, and most likely if they're willing to put in $150, they will in turn give you future business.
Those of you looking for $200 minimum projects and relying on a contest site as a main source of income are really walking on a tight rope to begin with – and you'll ultimately never be happy because the odds aren't in your favor to win all those big awards. Thats why this is a contest site, and not a place of employment.
A tough topic to cover, for sure, and like the project evaluations themselves, a very subjective topic.
..But thats my 2 cents! Thanks again DesignCrowd.
By
09 Lab
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Alec / DesignCrowd Team,
As a freelancer This sort of work and getting returning clients are my only source of income at the present time and has been for a while now. I am now considering other avenues such as studio positions and working overseas, due to the certain issues in and throughout my life. I will still use DesignCrowd as a source of income.
Setting minimum budgets and more Participation payments will certainly rectify the issue of "working for peanuts". Currently I do not consider a job on DesignCrowd less than $200. The jobs-won to jobs-worked ratio depends on what the client wants, and the number of designers on DesignCrowd are above 13000. Although a talented pool of designers win most of the work (specifically logo design) it can be a while before a designers' winning logo comes around again. Some designers win lots of high budget contests in a row, while others may win a small one less often, making it seem their time and effort is not rewarded.
Having a minimum budget will ensure that when the time comes around for a designers logo to be chosen, the time and effort between the recently and previously awarded, including all the un-awarded work in between for that week or even a month, has been worth it.
Minimum budgets will bring new business's to DesignCrowd, with a profitable margin of projects from larger clientele, over time. It will keep the DIY work - that can be sourced from the internet via tutorials - in office towards a business's in-house design personal and/or marketing team.
Hope this has been useful information.
Kind Regards Stuart
By
sD
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Dear Alec / DesignCrowd team,
Thank you for this opportunity of discussion. Right now, online contests and returning clients are my source income, because I am in a condition where I should travel between two places back and forth. I appreciate logo projects that are not less than $200. Some projects lower than $200 that I took are based only on other aspects, like, popularity and fun. Although setting a minimum budget is not a must (there are designers who are willing to do it and there are contest holders who are willing to pay certain amount of money), but setting a minimum budget will welcome better kind of projects, invite better designers, produce better contest logo designs, and automatically increase DesignCrowd's reputation. I think there is no need for participation payments, since it only reduces the amount of the top reward.
Looking forward to hear some good news!
Warmest Regards, Elisha
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Glad to hear the DC team are listening to designers, and making attempts to improve their site and the way things operate, minimum fees are a must to prevent people from taking advantage of the pool of designers, and to at least show appropriate appreciation for their hard work.
These crowd sourcing sites are all still evolving and getting the formula right is important for all involved, so listening to all parties comments is very important to their survival.
I personally find this form of designing quite interesting and very challenging, and often spend too much time entering contests when I should be doing my paying work as the contest bug can be quite addictive. I only enter as my time allows so choosing the the right contest is important, more client information would be helpful too, as I see many clients bypassing great designs for lesser more generic designs.
Well done so far DC, may you continue to improve and evolve your site.
Cheers Julian
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I'm not too concerned about minimums, designers can simply not participate in the ridiculously low dollar amounts. One thing did occur to me though. Recently I submitted a design for a $50 project, which is rare. I don't think I've ever wasted any time with one that low. In this case I thought I'd spend a half hour or so on it and see what happens. It turned out I was asked to do many, many revisions. I did it because I committed myself in the first place, and didn't want to cause DesignBay any discomfort in possibly having to deal with a disgruntled customer. Obviously, I don't do this for the money - I'm retired and I do it because I enjoy it once in a while and it gives me something to do. Most of us know, these are all very, very low pay projects and under any other circumstances wouldn't consider working for these budgets. However, based on that experience I would never work with that low of a budget again. She was very nice and I'm not complaining, after all... I asked for it. So she got a good deal and I learned a lesson. The point is, it might be a good idea to include in your system that for any budgets under $200 designers are not asked for any revisions. At least then, if someone chooses to participate, they won't get put on the spot.
By
WilsonAD
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I'm not too concerned about minimums, designers can simply not participate in the ridiculously low dollar amounts. One thing did occur to me though. Recently I submitted a design for a $50 project, which is rare. I don't think I've ever wasted any time with one that low. In this case I thought I'd spend a half hour or so on it and see what happens. It turned out I was asked to do many, many revisions. I did it because I committed myself in the first place, and didn't want to cause DesignBay any discomfort in possibly having to deal with a disgruntled customer. Obviously, I don't do this for the money - I'm retired and I do it because I enjoy it once in a while and it gives me something to do. Most of us know, these are all very, very low pay projects and under any other circumstances wouldn't consider working for these budgets. However, based on that experience I would never work with that low of a budget again. She was very nice and I'm not complaining, after all... I asked for it. So she got a good deal and I learned a lesson. The point is, it might be a good idea to include in your system that for any budgets under $200 designers are not asked for any revisions. At least then, if someone chooses to participate, they won't get put on the spot.
By
WilsonAD
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Hi Alec! Thank you for your email. I agree with the thing that there should be a minimum budget and more participation payments. For me as well this is the only source of income but what's different from you guys is that in my country i don't have a paypal service so i have to pay more for all the transactions to get the money. What about the minimum budget i would say that it should be somewhere $150 or even $100, but not like now when u see a request from a costumer for $20. You should think from the economic side, if the minimum budget will be to high you'll lose customers(it's my point of view). So i think there must be a minimum budget not lower than $100. What about participation payments there should be more of them the number depends on you and still on the client. So good luck in improving everything here.
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By
Byteminer Digital
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Dear Alec/Design Crowd Team,
You'vecreated a wonderful platform with Design Crowd it really generate a secure andattractive business. You and your team always solve the clients and designers issueson time with better solution, we appreciate for your concern. You guys arereally helpful all the time. In ourpoint of view for logo design minimum budget should be around 250$ and for awebsite design minimum should be 500$. Because both of the designs take time togenerate a creative design in order to win the competition. Furthermore sometimeclient ask for changes and few ask for more and new designs which take a lot ofamount of time. Regards Noman XpiderzDesigns
By
Xpiderz
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Dear Alec/Design Crowd Team,
You've created a wonderful platform with Design Crowd it really generate a secure and attractive business. You and your team always solve the clients and designers issues on time with better solution, we appreciate for your concern. You guys are really helpful all the time. In our point of view for logo design minimum budget should be around 250$ and for a website design minimum should be 500$. Because both of the designs take time to generate a creative design in order to win the competition. Furthermore sometime client ask for changes and few ask for more and new designs which take a lot ofamount of time. keep up with the good work. Regards Noman XpiderzDesigns
By
Xpiderz
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I'm a freelance designer working mostly with Fortune 500 companies but
came across this site and have I just have to say that I'm appalled at
the design budgets listed here. These are sweat shop prices which only
diminish the VALUE of design and lower the income of professional
designers by selling our wares like a cheap commodity. If you're a
design professional accepting paltry design fees, shame on you. You
hurting the design community as a whole. If you're a wanna be designer,
go to school and learn some skills so you fees reflect the value of
your work.
By
Christine Wiggins
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Dear Alec,
I welcome the news of a minimum budget as a positive step forward. I am a full time designer, and use designcrowd as an enjoyable side project. I find it a way of working on exciting briefs and with clients I wouldn't normally get the opportunity to work with. For that reason, although the payments come as a welcome bonus, I don't rely on the financial aspect of the site and use the competition element to compete with and learn from other designers from all over the globe. I enjoy being able to see the variety of different interpretations of the same brief. The competing element is also an exciting aspect of the concept and a useful gage to see how my own designs are seen by clients and just as usefully my peers. I choose to work on a variety of briefs/clients and the appeal of the site is handpicking a brief to work on, I choose briefs based on quality/understanding of the brief submitted, and whether the job captures my imaginaion, for that to continue I understand a variation on payments will occur due to varying clients budgets. It does annoy me however when I see clients taking advantage of the site to gain a cheap design for their company. When I read descriptions from clients claiming their company is an all singing, all dancing, super-duper bluechip company etc. and offer $20 for a design job not only is that an insult to the talent on offer on the site, but a degrading and insulting slur on the industry we work in. I understand that many designers use the site as a source of income and will therefore refrain from entering these briefs, feeling it is not worth their time, especially given that even if the design is lucky enough to win, DC take a 10% cut and paypal have had their share. With this in mind, I know the competition on the brief will be lacking, and as these low payments become more common, more and more talented designers will look to other avenues, and this is sad for all concerned not just myself. Finally, I would be interested to hear other designers ideas on how we can improve interaction with clients, because at present a number of jobs I have worked on seem to extend deadlines or spend 5-6 weeks deciding without giving a reason to why or which designs are being considered (if any), A simple client rating system which could immedietly eliminate ideas they don't see working would further strengthen competition and ultimately a better design for the client, because it's very frustrating spending your free time on a design to hear nothing back - not even that they have selected a winner.
Thanks again and keep up the good work
Michael Tokay Design
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Dear Alec/Design Crowd Team,
Its a welcome move and I think every designer who put in their effort
will welcome it.I am quite new to this crowd but already like the
projects.However,I feel that the minimum budget for any logo design
should be not less than 150$,considering the number of designs each
designer puts in,and the total number of entries.While its a great
thought to increase participation payments,I feel there is a need to
renovate the way participation payments are reserved and the way it is
included as a part of the total prize money.We should remember that the
prize money one gets includes Design Crowd fees,and Paypal's fees
too.Add to that the 2 participation payments.I think we could look at
it this way:firstly,the participation payments might be increased from
2 o 4,while the amount maybe taken down from 15$ to 10$.Secondly,the
participation payment should not be a part of the prize money.If a
customer has a budget of,say,200$,he can easily put the prize money at
160$ and allocate the rest for 4 participation payments.Thirdly,which I
feel is very important for anyone who puts in their design:I feel that
reservation of payments should be made only after that person has
submitted a design.It is unfair to others because while a person works
his head out for a design,someone else might reserve the payment
without even thinking about it,and then maybe,submit a design without
much thought as he already has reserved his payment and therefore put
his energy to other designs more appealing.I think,reservation of
payments should only be made after designers have submitted a design.
Lastly,even I agree and find that clients have bypassed
many great intelligent logos for more generic designs which have won
the prize,it sometimes make me feel whether I should put as much brain
storming as I really do now.If something can be done about it(I don't
think),but still,if anyone else has an idea on this,I think we might
see quality designs being selected as the winners.
All the best to DC for their efforts and hearing out the designers.
Regards
Shruti
By
Shruti Goswami
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Thanks for opening up this post, it is good to know the comments are being heard. I've not been on her long but come on here to look for open briefs for logo designs. From what I have seen there is quite a vast range people are willing to pay for the same thing - designing a logo. I wouldn't enter into a brief for less than $200. The more budget available over and above the that more time I will spend creating further concepts for submission. As for the participation payments they seem to reward designers who are quick to respond once a brief has been submitted and not on the quality of the work. I would prefer the payments to be given to 2nd and 3rd placed designs as a motivator to producing more quality output. I also think the briefing process should be improved, quality in = quality out. When I'm meeting with a new client who wants a logo design the fact find is nearly the most important stage. I want to know more about the client's business, where they are heading, who their competition/clients are, what tone they want to set. The visual representation helps on DC but I find too many examples are given sometimes to be of any value to direction the client wants to go. Finally, feedback... I don't know how it is recommended that this should be given but "thankyou for your submission but this is not what we are looking for, please try again" is not constructive. If a client doesn't get what they are looking for out of nearly 100 submissions then the brief has not been written correctly. I would like to see a better channel of communication for feeding back to designers who have spent time producing work 'on-brief'.
Apart from that I love the concept of Design Crowd and it can only get better - keep it up.
Regards
°Crisp Design
By
°Crisp Design
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